multiple opponents

Author	Comments
urban_samurai Newbie 14 posts	Monday 24th January 2005 at 15:15 hey ppl, just wondering what peoples views are on the effectiveness of jj with more than one opponent. the reason i ask is i recently had a fight with this guy (NOT MY CHOICE) i hit him full on with an atemi then the next thing six of his mates piled in on me, the only thing going through my head at that point was "stay on your feet" and i sort of went into auto pilot if u will. i managed to hurt a few of them and i was just cut on my nose but one thing i do know is if it wasnt for some guys passin by pullin them off of me i would have been done over big time. during this fight i didn;t apply any locks or chokes just pure punching and kicking, which made me think about how effective my training is and also it made me realise that i need to be fitter and i run (3mile) to the gym most nights unless i'm at jj traing a because i was so knackrered it was unbelieveable it took me 15mins to get my breathe back. i;ve been studying ju jitsu 4 a year or so now so may be its just because i;m still learning but also i know theres no substite for numbers in a fight. i;d appreciate any comments on this or any advice from people who have had similiar things happen to them.
sl Resident 855 posts	Monday 24th January 2005 at 15:24 You were prob so nackered cos you had an adrenaline dump!!! Best advice for multiple is what you did anyway hit em hard, stay on your feet and run like fcuk!!!! ______________________________
urban_samurai Newbie 14 posts	Monday 24th January 2005 at 15:42 Thanx, i've had fights before that but i've never been that knackered in my life. To be honest if i didn't train as much as i do i think i'dve been in hospital right now, i'm just glad i got off my arse an got fit. The only thing good to come out of this is that i realised that i didn't have to lose my temper and the more i relaxed the easier it was to fight.
Sweaty Gi Moderator 120 posts	Monday 24th January 2005 at 15:45 urban_samurai, where do you train ? do you think you'll try gracie barra sheffield ?
urban_samurai Newbie 14 posts	Monday 24th January 2005 at 15:52 I train at my local lesuire center in worksop where i live, and yeah i'll deffinately give gracie barra in sheff a go bjj is a good system of fighting from what i can gather from this forum and other peoples opinions. i just have to solve the matter of passing my driving test (not long now) and i'll be there as soon as i can but i;ve thought about catching the train too.
Robsco 1319 posts	Monday 24th January 2005 at 16:03 Back to multiple attackers - I don't think any one art has the answer, none of them do, but most arts always use the same basic principles, so it doesn't matter too much what you train in. If you get into that situation you're probably f*cked anyway. The Admin Guy
Bassmonger Resident 198 posts	Monday 24th January 2005 at 16:08 In other news- the earth is flat. DEFEATED IN AL
urban_samurai Newbie 14 posts	Monday 24th January 2005 at 16:16 Your probably right there robsco. And i just like to congratulate you on such fine site, i can honestly say its one of the best jj/bjj sites i've been on if not hte best.
Robsco 1319 posts	Monday 24th January 2005 at 18:01 Cheers pal, always good to get the compliments, but don't tell me, tell others. :-D The Admin Guy
Nathan Addict 175 posts	Tuesday 25th January 2005 at 09:30 Ive always thought, with two attackers at least, you've gotta put the first one (preferably the biggest one) down first. A good hard smack on the chin, followed by a stamp will keep them down, then you've got a fair one-on-one with the other one. You don't really wanna get grabbed or be pulled about. And especially not get put to the ground. This is one of the main loop holes with BJJ as it focuses mostly on ground work. The old Thai Boxing would be the best skill in these situations, coupled with maybe TJJ for releases if you get grabbed etc. But either way, if you're out numbered, especially by more than 2:1, you're gonna get hurt unless you do a "Leg It"! _____________________________
crazymofo55 Regular 41 posts	Saturday 29th January 2005 at 21:07 If it's really a matter of survival against multiple oppenents you can't mess around, you must worry about disabling your attackers as quickly as possible. Attack eyes, nuts, and throat if you have enough knowledge and awareness you can use vital areas such as kidneys, knee joints, neck (as this site shows how to strike), and tempols. The most important thing though is to position your attackers so that you can hinder them and quickly disable them one by one. Break the circle of attackers and try to coral them into each other so that only one at a time can have access to you. For example, grab the most venerable one by the throat with your thumb and forefinger use his body to block out one attacker, disable an adjacent attacker immediatly after. This should be the maximum amount you will have in your radius at one time if you immediatly fight through the circle at one point. It will be like a triangle where if you are in the middle you are taking point 1 throwing it at point 2 and so point 3 is on the side where you are have a free arm to launch another attack at vitals. Now if that succeeds you have three blockers in front of you to hinder the other attackers' access in front and no access behind you. You can either escape, or search for an instrument to protect yourself from the oncoming onslaught. This will only buy about 3 seconds though and your chances are still really slim to escape without getting hurt if they are truly dedicated to taking you down. Best defense is to not do anything retarded to end up in this situation. The most valuable weapon you have though against multiple attackers is moral and if you hurt one it makes the others think about how much work it's gonna be to take you down. Chances are half of them entered the fray halfheartedly anyway thinking that you would be overwhelmed by the magnitude of the onslaught, but when you can face them all fighting and they have to climb over a couple backs to reach you then it often becomes way to much work then what these guys are willing to offer for the leader. There have been a couple situations in my life where I could of possible won fights like this and was simply too overwhelmed to know what to do.
ninja9578 Regular 92 posts	Sunday 30th January 2005 at 16:20 For multiple attackers, hit pressure points, hit hard. Then run, the best bet when outnumbered is your speed. If you really have to fight use the most effective knockout techniques, the closer you can get it to one on one the better. Blue Belt - Gracie JJ 3rd Degree Black Belt - Shorin Ryu Red Belt w/ two stripes - Soo Bahk Do
urban_samurai Newbie 14 posts	Monday 31st January 2005 at 13:10 Just want to thank every1 4 their comments and advice, its help me learn alot and realise things cant be learned in a small amount of time and even tho its not what i want to do or recommend, you cannot beat real street experience.
Dave Addict 183 posts	Monday 31st January 2005 at 16:23 If possible, run like fook. If you cant run, every strike you give has to be the hardest you can muster. No fancy crap or grappling(except for creating space to strike or if a guy grabs you) is gonna work. Simple gross motor skills such as powerfull headbutts, knee strikes and punches/palm strikes are whats needed. Also groin shots with any part of your body. Dont aim to knock everyone out simply do as much as you can to create a gap to escape. Then run like fook!!!:-D Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Post
crazymofo55 Regular 41 posts	Tuesday 1st February 2005 at 01:00 Headbutts and punches don't work. It will be absorbed by adrenaline and it's hard to stun with only one punch. There's not enough time to mess around with attacks like this. Either pinch the neck with a thumb and bent forefinger, gouge the eyes with your fingernails, drive knuckles or knife edge the major artery directly behind and below the jaw, or attack their nuts with a knee or front snap kick. Consider that sometimes there is not a route to escape. Always though break the circle so that you can't be flanked and attack moral if you can. Sometimes hyeanas won't jump on a lion even though they severly outnumber and can take him down because they know the lion will take a couple with him. Postion your attackers so that the fewest amount can have access to you if possible and remove them as quickly as possible with the most painful attack you can devise. It's pretty disheartening to hear the person attacking in front of you yelp like a injured dog before a wild animal that you have to take a crack at next. It's always good to find a weapon as quickly as possible once you can gather the situation though. Almost anything can be used as a weapon and once you got that you can threaten more of them. They may think "ok if we all five jump in now one of us is going to get stabbed in the gut or cracked over the head, is it really worth the risk for me?" Once you do this they may possibly open an escape route and let you slip away. Otherwise you may have to fight it out one after another until they all are taken out. It is never best to set up no threat and look venerable. Then unless you are really fast they will always have their way with you. This type of intimidation is the moral of all the people who were probably halfheartedly dragged in to jump you to begin with. Besides usually when people pile on it's because they are sissies that are too scared to fight you alone thinking in a group you are too hindered to put up a fight. Change this situation around and victory can be yours, but it won't come by black eyes that hurt the day after it comes with instant screatching from something really painful.
sl Resident 855 posts	Tuesday 1st February 2005 at 09:00 "Headbutts and punches don't work" Really? hahaha and as for pinching knecks if you have multiple attackers on you and you waste time trying to find that sweet point on the kneck his mate will be punching and headbutting you..... although that wouldnt work right.........so youd be ok.? Im with Dave on this one... Hit em hard and legit.... ______________________________
Robsco 1319 posts	Tuesday 1st February 2005 at 16:02 Just legit! The Admin Guy
crazymofo55 Regular 41 posts	Wednesday 2nd February 2005 at 03:09 Ok, more specifically throat. I haven't actually done this or practiced it, but alot of books about self defense against armed attackers suggest a spearhand to the throat to finish them off. It's a very soft area around there. I would imagine you would not reach straight out and try this, but if you can close in and get a grip with the other hand there's a good chance that you could land this attack and control at least one of them temporarily. The course of action I would probably try would be to get a get a hold of some hair so they can't lower their head and then sink the lock in real quick. Usually it is demonstated after throwing the attacker to the ground, but all they usually say about multiple attackers without an escape route is to corral them as best you can while disabling them as quickly as possible. I have never seen a street self defense manual suggest conventional tactics like punches and kicks. There simply is not enough time to worry about such things. Vital areas must be taken advantage of to have a good defense. These sort of things are banned from competition for a reason.
sl Resident 855 posts	Wednesday 2nd February 2005 at 08:23 A question for the entire forum who here has been involved in this situation? What was your cause of action. I personally have a good few years ago against two lads tryign to steal my watch of all things! Got away with it i managed to knock one over and his mate done the leg it. Not without me taking a few digs i might add and a sore head for a few days but all in all a lucky escape. Not something id like to repeat. Mofo beleive me the books dont help / fancy stuff......... And your not getting many moves off when two lads are trying to riverdance on your head. ______________________________
Dave Addict 183 posts	Wednesday 2nd February 2005 at 13:47 Mofo its obvious you aint never been in a real fight let alone with multiple attackers and therefore don't have the experience to comment on this subject. You say punches and headbutts dont work in real situations, well, i'm sorry to burst your bubble but they do! I've had the pleasure of using punches and headbutts on numerous occasions:-D and also the displeasure of receiving loads too:-X and i would take a pinch on the neck any day. Also you mention snap kicks to the groin in one post and then go on to say kicks dont work in another. Snap kicks are a load of bollocks and if you want to kick someone in theirs then it has to be as powerful a kick as you can give and with full follow through! Have you ever been kicked in the head and body mofo while on the ground? Im guessing the answer is no. Well i have and i've dished it out too(1on1 not cowardly jumping in to sum1elses fight) and it doesnt tickle!!! Kicks work well when used at the right time! It doesnt matter if your against a single guy or multiple guys you simply dont have time to pick fancy shots and dish them out like some Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee movie. It's fast and furious and extremely scrappy. You dont have time to think and therefore fast heavy and powerfull shots such as butts, punches/palm strikes, knees and below waist kicks/groin shots work. Remember to run whenever you can get chance! I do agree though with the biting and eye gouging stuff that you mention. Me before and after every shot getting kicked, punched, kneed and slapped silly: :-O Me before and after getting pinched on the neck:-\|:-):-D:-));-) Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Post

Author

Comments

Newbie

14 posts

Monday 24th January 2005 at 15:15

hey ppl, just wondering what peoples views are on the effectiveness of jj with more than one opponent.
the reason i ask is i recently had a fight with this guy (NOT MY CHOICE) i hit him full on with an atemi then the next thing six of his mates piled in on me, the only thing going through my head at that point was "stay on your feet" and i sort of went into auto pilot if u will. i managed to hurt a few of them and i was just cut on my nose but one thing i do know is if it wasnt for some guys passin by pullin them off of me i would have been done over big time. during this fight i didn;t apply any locks or chokes just pure punching and kicking, which made me think about how effective my training is and also it made me realise that i need to be fitter and i run (3mile) to the gym most nights unless i'm at jj traing a because i was so knackrered it was unbelieveable it took me 15mins to get my breathe back. i;ve been studying ju jitsu 4 a year or so now so may be its just because i;m still learning but also i know theres no substite for numbers in a fight. i;d appreciate any comments on this or any advice from people who have had similiar things happen to them.

Resident

855 posts

Monday 24th January 2005 at 15:24

You were prob so nackered cos you had an adrenaline dump!!!

Best advice for multiple is what you did anyway hit em hard, stay on your feet and run like fcuk!!!!

______________________________

urban_samurai

Newbie

14 posts

Monday 24th January 2005 at 15:42

Thanx, i've had fights before that but i've never been that knackered in my life. To be honest if i didn't train as much as i do i think i'dve been in hospital right now, i'm just glad i got off my arse an got fit.

The only thing good to come out of this is that i realised that i didn't have to lose my temper and the more i relaxed the easier it was to fight.

Sweaty Gi

Moderator

120 posts

Monday 24th January 2005 at 15:45

urban_samurai, where do you train ?
do you think you'll try gracie barra sheffield ?

urban_samurai

Newbie

14 posts

Monday 24th January 2005 at 15:52

I train at my local lesuire center in worksop where i live, and yeah i'll deffinately give gracie barra in sheff a go bjj is a good system of fighting from what i can gather from this forum and other peoples opinions. i just have to solve the matter of passing my driving test (not long now) and i'll be there as soon as i can but i;ve thought about catching the train too.

Robsco

1319 posts

Monday 24th January 2005 at 16:03

Back to multiple attackers - I don't think any one art has the answer, none of them do, but most arts always use the same basic principles, so it doesn't matter too much what you train in. If you get into that situation you're probably f*cked anyway.

The Admin Guy

Bassmonger

Resident

198 posts

Monday 24th January 2005 at 16:08

In other news- the earth is flat.

DEFEATED IN AL

urban_samurai

Newbie

14 posts

Monday 24th January 2005 at 16:16

Your probably right there robsco.

And i just like to congratulate you on such fine site, i can honestly say its one of the best jj/bjj sites i've been on if not hte best.

Robsco

1319 posts

Monday 24th January 2005 at 18:01

Cheers pal, always good to get the compliments, but don't tell me, tell others. :-D

The Admin Guy

Nathan

Addict

175 posts

Tuesday 25th January 2005 at 09:30

Ive always thought, with two attackers at least, you've gotta put the first one (preferably the biggest one) down first. A good hard smack on the chin, followed by a stamp will keep them down, then you've got a fair one-on-one with the other one. You don't really wanna get grabbed or be pulled about. And especially not get put to the ground. This is one of the main loop holes with BJJ as it focuses mostly on ground work. The old Thai Boxing would be the best skill in these situations, coupled with maybe TJJ for releases if you get grabbed etc. But either way, if you're out numbered, especially by more than 2:1, you're gonna get hurt unless you do a "Leg It"!

_____________________________

crazymofo55

Regular

41 posts

Saturday 29th January 2005 at 21:07

If it's really a matter of survival against multiple oppenents you can't mess around, you must worry about disabling your attackers as quickly as possible. Attack eyes, nuts, and throat if you have enough knowledge and awareness you can use vital areas such as kidneys, knee joints, neck (as this site shows how to strike), and tempols. The most important thing though is to position your attackers so that you can hinder them and quickly disable them one by one. Break the circle of attackers and try to coral them into each other so that only one at a time can have access to you. For example, grab the most venerable one by the throat with your thumb and forefinger use his body to block out one attacker, disable an adjacent attacker immediatly after. This should be the maximum amount you will have in your radius at one time if you immediatly fight through the circle at one point. It will be like a triangle where if you are in the middle you are taking point 1 throwing it at point 2 and so point 3 is on the side where you are have a free arm to launch another attack at vitals. Now if that succeeds you have three blockers in front of you to hinder the other attackers' access in front and no access behind you. You can either escape, or search for an instrument to protect yourself from the oncoming onslaught. This will only buy about 3 seconds though and your chances are still really slim to escape without getting hurt if they are truly dedicated to taking you down. Best defense is to not do anything retarded to end up in this situation. The most valuable weapon you have though against multiple attackers is moral and if you hurt one it makes the others think about how much work it's gonna be to take you down. Chances are half of them entered the fray halfheartedly anyway thinking that you would be overwhelmed by the magnitude of the onslaught, but when you can face them all fighting and they have to climb over a couple backs to reach you then it often becomes way to much work then what these guys are willing to offer for the leader. There have been a couple situations in my life where I could of possible won fights like this and was simply too overwhelmed to know what to do.

ninja9578

Regular

92 posts

Sunday 30th January 2005 at 16:20

For multiple attackers, hit pressure points, hit hard. Then run, the best bet when outnumbered is your speed. If you really have to fight use the most effective knockout techniques, the closer you can get it to one on one the better.

Blue Belt - Gracie JJ
3rd Degree Black Belt - Shorin Ryu
Red Belt w/ two stripes - Soo Bahk Do

urban_samurai

Newbie

14 posts

Monday 31st January 2005 at 13:10

Just want to thank every1 4 their comments and advice, its help me learn alot and realise things cant be learned in a small amount of time and even tho its not what i want to do or recommend, you cannot beat real street experience.

Dave

Addict

183 posts

Monday 31st January 2005 at 16:23

If possible, run like fook. If you cant run, every strike you give has to be the hardest you can muster.

No fancy crap or grappling(except for creating space to strike or if a guy grabs you) is gonna work. Simple gross motor skills such as powerfull headbutts, knee strikes and punches/palm strikes are whats needed. Also groin shots with any part of your body. Dont aim to knock everyone out simply do as much as you can to create a gap to escape. Then run like fook!!!:-D

Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Post

crazymofo55

Regular

41 posts

Tuesday 1st February 2005 at 01:00

Headbutts and punches don't work. It will be absorbed by adrenaline and it's hard to stun with only one punch. There's not enough time to mess around with attacks like this. Either pinch the neck with a thumb and bent forefinger, gouge the eyes with your fingernails, drive knuckles or knife edge the major artery directly behind and below the jaw, or attack their nuts with a knee or front snap kick.
Consider that sometimes there is not a route to escape. Always though break the circle so that you can't be flanked and attack moral if you can. Sometimes hyeanas won't jump on a lion even though they severly outnumber and can take him down because they know the lion will take a couple with him. Postion your attackers so that the fewest amount can have access to you if possible and remove them as quickly as possible with the most painful attack you can devise. It's pretty disheartening to hear the person attacking in front of you yelp like a injured dog before a wild animal that you have to take a crack at next.
It's always good to find a weapon as quickly as possible once you can gather the situation though. Almost anything can be used as a weapon and once you got that you can threaten more of them. They may think "ok if we all five jump in now one of us is going to get stabbed in the gut or cracked over the head, is it really worth the risk for me?" Once you do this they may possibly open an escape route and let you slip away. Otherwise you may have to fight it out one after another until they all are taken out. It is never best to set up no threat and look venerable. Then unless you are really fast they will always have their way with you. This type of intimidation is the moral of all the people who were probably halfheartedly dragged in to jump you to begin with. Besides usually when people pile on it's because they are sissies that are too scared to fight you alone thinking in a group you are too hindered to put up a fight. Change this situation around and victory can be yours, but it won't come by black eyes that hurt the day after it comes with instant screatching from something really painful.

Resident

855 posts

Tuesday 1st February 2005 at 09:00

"Headbutts and punches don't work" Really? hahaha and as for pinching knecks if you have multiple attackers on you and you waste time trying to find that sweet point on the kneck his mate will be punching and headbutting you..... although that wouldnt work right.........so youd be ok.?

Im with Dave on this one... Hit em hard and legit....

______________________________

Robsco

1319 posts

Tuesday 1st February 2005 at 16:02

Just legit!

The Admin Guy

crazymofo55

Regular

41 posts

Wednesday 2nd February 2005 at 03:09

Ok, more specifically throat. I haven't actually done this or practiced it, but alot of books about self defense against armed attackers suggest a spearhand to the throat to finish them off. It's a very soft area around there. I would imagine you would not reach straight out and try this, but if you can close in and get a grip with the other hand there's a good chance that you could land this attack and control at least one of them temporarily. The course of action I would probably try would be to get a get a hold of some hair so they can't lower their head and then sink the lock in real quick. Usually it is demonstated after throwing the attacker to the ground, but all they usually say about multiple attackers without an escape route is to corral them as best you can while disabling them as quickly as possible. I have never seen a street self defense manual suggest conventional tactics like punches and kicks. There simply is not enough time to worry about such things. Vital areas must be taken advantage of to have a good defense. These sort of things are banned from competition for a reason.

Resident

855 posts

Wednesday 2nd February 2005 at 08:23

A question for the entire forum who here has been involved in this situation? What was your cause of action.

I personally have a good few years ago against two lads tryign to steal my watch of all things! Got away with it i managed to knock one over and his mate done the leg it. Not without me taking a few digs i might add and a sore head for a few days but all in all a lucky escape. Not something id like to repeat.

Mofo beleive me the books dont help / fancy stuff......... And your not getting many moves off when two lads are trying to riverdance on your head.

______________________________

Dave

Addict

183 posts

Wednesday 2nd February 2005 at 13:47

Mofo its obvious you aint never been in a real fight let alone with multiple attackers and therefore don't have the experience to comment on this subject.

You say punches and headbutts dont work in real situations, well, i'm sorry to burst your bubble but they do! I've had the pleasure of using punches and headbutts on numerous occasions:-D and also the displeasure of receiving loads too:-X and i would take a pinch on the neck any day.

Also you mention snap kicks to the groin in one post and then go on to say kicks dont work in another. Snap kicks are a load of bollocks and if you want to kick someone in theirs then it has to be as powerful a kick as you can give and with full follow through! Have you ever been kicked in the head and body mofo while on the ground? Im guessing the answer is no. Well i have and i've dished it out too(1on1 not cowardly jumping in to sum1elses fight) and it doesnt tickle!!! Kicks work well when used at the right time!

It doesnt matter if your against a single guy or multiple guys you simply dont have time to pick fancy shots and dish them out like some Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee movie. It's fast and furious and extremely scrappy. You dont have time to think and therefore fast heavy and powerfull shots such as butts, punches/palm strikes, knees and below waist kicks/groin shots work. Remember to run whenever you can get chance!

I do agree though with the biting and eye gouging stuff that you mention.

Me before and after every shot getting kicked, punched, kneed and slapped silly: :-O
Me before and after getting pinched on the neck:-|:-):-D:-));-)

Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Post