Judo - Ultimate Jujitsu

Judo

Author	Comments
sl Resident 855 posts	Wednesday 14th December 2005 at 12:29 After a good judo book any ideas? ______________________________
steve Resident 217 posts	Tuesday 20th December 2005 at 10:29 Would suggest '[link=http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ultim8jj-21&camp=1634&creative=6738&path=ASIN%2F0713666838]Judo - Know The Game[/link]' by Geoff Gleeson, circa 70's. Geoff was the British inovator who is crdited with 'westernising' judo and its coaching methods, putting major emphasis on mobility in judo as opposed to technical excellence, to acheive winning results. "Its not the size of the dog i
spider Regular 235 posts	Monday 2nd January 2006 at 10:37 Although I'm no Judo book expert and I don't know what you're after, here are the ones I own; [link=http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ultim8jj-21&camp=1634&creative=6738&path=ASIN%2F0720711037%2Fqid%253D1136205316]Novice to First Dan: Interpretation of the British Judo Association Syllabus[/link] by Brian Jacks, Cyril A Carter - Good for looking up old amusing hairstyles, but as a guide to the full syllabus that it claims to be, it is missing lots and is very out dated. [link=http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ultim8jj-21&camp=1634&creative=6738&path=ASIN%2F1874572704%2Fqid%253D1136205393]The A-Z of Judo[/link] by Syd Hoare - A book with more than 100 throwing techniques, 20 holds, 30 armlocks, 40 strangles and 20 self defense techniques that are now illegal in modern Judo laid out in A-Z by their japanese names, with their translations underneath. - Each move has a description of how the move is applied, telling you what the attacker does and what is essential for the move to be successful. - A brilliant resource for looking up what on earth people are talking about when they refer to moves in Japanese. - My favourite Judo book so far. [link=http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ultim8jj-21&camp=1634&creative=6738&path=ASIN%2F1585744492%2Fqid%253D1136205442]Judo- The Essential Guide[/link] by Alex Butcher - A very modern book, laid out so that absolutely everyone can understand it. - Full colour pictures in a modern layout. - Simple text broken up by pictures. - Includes getting started, falling, ground work, standing and throwing, advanced techniques and self-defence. - Although it contains a lot of different aspects, it only breifly covers each, going into details on only a handfull of techniques in each subject. - Not especially an essential guide, but a very good first Judo book, giving you a wide coverage of many aspects of Judo, without confusing you or bogging you down with to much detail.
Robsco 1319 posts	Wednesday 4th January 2006 at 19:54 You taking up Judo now too? Thought you was a BJJ player at heart? Although can't knock ya, would love to be a black belt in Judo, just no time. The Admin Guy
sl Resident 855 posts	Wednesday 4th January 2006 at 20:02 Well i scrapped the thai because it clashes with BJJ but have always liked the throws in TJJ and Judo and would love to learn it properly but no clubs that are close enough and dont clash with BJJ!:-D ______________________________
Robsco 1319 posts	Wednesday 4th January 2006 at 21:19 might let you off then - maybe :-p A good background in Judo would make anyone an excellent BJJ'er in my book - not too many places train the takedowns and throws for BJJ. The Admin Guy
sl Resident 855 posts	Thursday 5th January 2006 at 07:54 does seem like alot more BJJers are learning the Judo throws. ______________________________
spider Regular 235 posts	Sunday 8th January 2006 at 12:04 I'm living in Scotland at the moment, in a fairly rural area. There are no BJJ here, and after seeing a TJJ bloke get submitted by a workmate who does no martial arts while they were messing about, I realised the value of competition. He got caught in a front headlock, and as they went to the ground, he had no idea he should've been trying to get his legs out of the half guard, he was just flailing a lot. It was only through my interest in the UFC that I knew about what he should've been doing, he only like the UFC when they are standing up, he doesn't like it when they are 'cuddling' and doing 'that gay stuff on the ground'. My main winge about Judo is that I got told off during my first randori, I didn't know leg locks were not legal.
Robsco 1319 posts	Sunday 8th January 2006 at 12:49 I've always felt that Judo is too restricted, although saying that, even BJJ has some illegal moves, but they're more like neck cranks and nasty spine locks. Judo is great for getting the takedown, but there again, there's an importance placed on landing your opponent on their back. Personally I'd want them on their side so it's easier to roll them to their front and take the back mount for the chokes, or even just take the arm for a lock. Maybe there's a Judoka who can fill in what i'm not so aware of? There's obviously loads of throws in Judo that doesn't land the opponent on their back, but placing such an importance on it doesn't suit me. If I take someone down, that's all I'm worried about - I got 'em down. The Admin Guy
sl Resident 855 posts	Sunday 8th January 2006 at 15:24 on ilegal moves in BJJ which leg locks arent allowed is it just heel hooks and kneebars? So are achiles and toe holds allowed? ______________________________
Robsco 1319 posts	Sunday 8th January 2006 at 15:39 Achiles is fine, not too sure about heel hooks and knee bars. I'm sure knee bars are fine, and maybe heel hooks only at certain levels. Andy's your man for the rules. The Admin Guy
sl Resident 855 posts	Sunday 8th January 2006 at 16:48 what about toe holds? Baasically which leg locks are allowed at white belt comp:-p ______________________________
spider Regular 235 posts	Sunday 8th January 2006 at 16:58 Being a complete beginner in Judo, I was in someone's open guard and I went for an achilles tendon lock during randori when I got told no leg locks. Judo does have a lot of leg locks, but it's in competition and randori that they are illegal. All sports need limitations, but I really disagree with not allowing something as safe as that particular lock. One of the reasons leg locks were made illegal is because of safety, but also they found that Judo players were often very susceptible to them (an arguemnt to make them legal I think personally). As with BJJ, Judo also has neck/back cranks and wrist locks that are competition illegal, an echo of their mutual origin. I too am disappointed with the landing on their back ending a bout system, but particularly when the attacker lets go immediately. There are however, examples of Judoka jumping to guard, performing flying armbars, and taking a double leg or dragging their opponent to the ground to submit them (I'll try to find examples to post). Another way to score is to pin your opponent to the ground in a hold, being unsuccessful at this can also lead to a submission scored from the bottom player. Personally, and as my instructor advises, I'm not letting go of my opponent until the judge has called an end to the fight.
sl Resident 855 posts	Sunday 8th January 2006 at 17:45 i was thinking more for bjj (know its judo post but it sort of went that way;-)) I dont think Toe holds or achiles are dangerous am i missing something ? On wrist locks are they allowed in competition? (bjj):-D ______________________________
Robsco 1319 posts	Sunday 8th January 2006 at 20:22 I don't consider an achilles lock to be dangerous - heel hook is a different matter since it twists the knee joint, to which you might not be aware until it's too late - if someone ever catches me in a heel hook i'm sure to be tapping like a crazy man in seconds! The Admin Guy
Bren Addict 123 posts	Sunday 8th January 2006 at 20:56 I just checked out the rules for the "Gorillaz" comp (that Andy posted before Xmas). Legal Techniques - Any kind of choke (except for using the hand to close the wind pipe) with or without the use of the uniform. - Any armbar, shoulder lock, or wrist lock - Any Leg Lock or Ankle Lock - Heel hooks are only allowed in the advanced division and are an instant disqualification in any other division Illegal Techniques - No striking / kicking of any kind - No eye gouging or fish hooking - No grabbing the ears - No hair pulling, biting - No finger or toe holds - No thumbing - No scratching and pinching - No touching groin area - No hands, knees or elbows on face - No slippery substances allowed on body or clothing Are these typical BJJ rules and how do they compare to Judo? I'm a bit surprised they allow ankle cranks and heel hooks (in the advanced competition), an ankle being quite a delicate thing, one over-zealous ankle crank and you're left needing surgery.
Robsco 1319 posts	Sunday 8th January 2006 at 22:02 "one over-zealous ankle crank and you're left needing surgery" True, but you have to catch it first. :-p No mention of knee-bars? Strange. They will be the official BJJ rules I presume, although that event sounds more like an ADCC style event. The Admin Guy
Sweaty Gi Moderator 120 posts	Monday 9th January 2006 at 02:03 Urban Gorillaz is no gi competition which usually have slightly different rules to gi competitions e.g. heel hooks are allowed (advanced only) which aren't in a gi competition Knee bars are usually allowed in both. Again, only for advanced competitors, so there's nothing for you to worry about Rob :-)) Gi comps usually follow these [link=http://www.cbjj.com.br/english/rules.htm]rules[/link]
steve Resident 217 posts	Monday 9th January 2006 at 11:17 Judo 'scoring' summarised.... Clean throw of opponent to land on his back (ie both shoulders touch the mat) = Ippon (full 10 point score - contest is over) Clean throw of opponent to land almost on his back (ie one shoulder touches the mat) = Waza-Ari (7 point score) match continues Clean throw of opponent to land on his side (ie no shoulders touch down) = Yuko (5 point score) match continues Clean throw of opponent to land on his buttocks = Koka (3 point score) match continues. A clean throw is where the attacking thrower has not used an illegal action to get the throw. Examples of illegal are holding a cross lapel of jacket for more than 5 seconds, or holding below belt line onto pants for more than 5 seconds, or a drag down where attacker has deliberately gone to ground and attempts then to pull the defender onto the ground with him (eg holding a de la riva guard from on your back and trying to then sweep opponent to the ground). Also illegal throws are ones in which either the attacker 'head dives' to the mat to get the throw, or he causes the defender to 'head dive' into the mat, both are considered dangerous and will result in a disqualification. A player may follow up to a throw which has not scored the Ippon, onto the ground, if he maintains a grip on the opponent as he hits the floor and he does the follow up immediately. Once on the ground a legal submission (tap out) scores Ippon (fight over), or a 'controlled pin down' scores points as follows... Opponent has to be kept with his back (one or both shoulder blades) to the mat, the attacker must have his legs free from guard or half guard when doing this. Once the pin down is held (termed osae-komi) a timer is started, if the pin is held for 10 seconds a koka is scored, 15 seconds a yuko, 20 seeconds a waza-ari and 25 seconds an Ippon. If the pin gets broken the clock stops (termed toketa) and is re-started when the pin is re-stablished. To win a contest within the match time limit either Ippon is scored, or two waza-ari scores (or disqualification for major rule infringement termed honsoku-maki, or culmination of several minor or medium infringements termed shido and chui respectively. Note - time on the floor is limited, if there is no positive action in the attackers attempt to submit, or he cannot gain pindown control within approximately 5 seconds, then both players are made to stand up again. This does not mean a limit of 5 secs on the ground but that there has to be deliberate progressive action for an allowance of more than 5 seconds to be given.:-D "Its not the size of the dog i
spider Regular 235 posts	Monday 9th January 2006 at 12:11 Just a slight addition to the throw scoring, contrary to the always landing on the back thing. Ippon (10 points, equivilent to a knockout) is scored when the contestant with control throws the other (largely on his back) with considerable force and speed. Waza-ari (7 points) is scored when the contestent throws the other but is lacking any one of the elements needed for Ippon. Yuko (5 points) is scored when a contestant throws another but is lacking two of the Ippon elements i.e. lacking in 'largely on back' and either speed or force, or lacking in both speed and force. Koka (3 points) is scored when the contestant with control throws the other onto one shoulder, thigh or buttocks with both speed and force. That boring example was from Judo- the essential guide, by Alex Butcher. They do encourage throwing the opponent onto the back, but I'm hoping I will get to do some groundwork in competition, as I would choose to do BJJ if it was an option. A lot of Judoka seem to be obsessed with the throws and not know much of armlocks(anyone heard of the Fusen-Ryu vs Kodokan competition?). In comparison to BJJ and illegal competition techniques, I know you're not allowed to strangle with your belt ends or the bottom of your jacket. Wrist locks and leg locks of all kinds are not allowed either.

Author

Comments

Resident

855 posts

Wednesday 14th December 2005 at 12:29

After a good judo book any ideas?

______________________________

steve

Resident

217 posts

Tuesday 20th December 2005 at 10:29

Would suggest '[link=http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ultim8jj-21&camp=1634&creative=6738&path=ASIN%2F0713666838]Judo - Know The Game[/link]' by Geoff Gleeson, circa 70's.

Geoff was the British inovator who is crdited with 'westernising' judo and its coaching methods, putting major emphasis on mobility in judo as opposed to technical excellence, to acheive winning results.

"Its not the size of the dog i

spider

Regular

235 posts

Monday 2nd January 2006 at 10:37

Although I'm no Judo book expert and I don't know what you're after, here are the ones I own;

[link=http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ultim8jj-21&camp=1634&creative=6738&path=ASIN%2F0720711037%2Fqid%253D1136205316]Novice to First Dan: Interpretation of the British Judo Association Syllabus[/link] by Brian Jacks, Cyril A Carter
- Good for looking up old amusing hairstyles, but as a guide to the full syllabus that it claims to be, it is missing lots and is very out dated.

[link=http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ultim8jj-21&camp=1634&creative=6738&path=ASIN%2F1874572704%2Fqid%253D1136205393]The A-Z of Judo[/link] by Syd Hoare
- A book with more than 100 throwing techniques, 20 holds, 30 armlocks, 40 strangles and 20 self defense techniques that are now illegal in modern Judo laid out in A-Z by their japanese names, with their translations underneath.
- Each move has a description of how the move is applied, telling you what the attacker does and what is essential for the move to be successful.
- A brilliant resource for looking up what on earth people are talking about when they refer to moves in Japanese.
- My favourite Judo book so far.

[link=http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ultim8jj-21&camp=1634&creative=6738&path=ASIN%2F1585744492%2Fqid%253D1136205442]Judo- The Essential Guide[/link] by Alex Butcher
- A very modern book, laid out so that absolutely everyone can understand it.
- Full colour pictures in a modern layout.
- Simple text broken up by pictures.
- Includes getting started, falling, ground work, standing and throwing, advanced techniques and self-defence.
- Although it contains a lot of different aspects, it only breifly covers each, going into details on only a handfull of techniques in each subject.
- Not especially an essential guide, but a very good first Judo book, giving you a wide coverage of many aspects of Judo, without confusing you or bogging you down with to much detail.

Robsco

1319 posts

Wednesday 4th January 2006 at 19:54

You taking up Judo now too? Thought you was a BJJ player at heart? Although can't knock ya, would love to be a black belt in Judo, just no time.

The Admin Guy

Resident

855 posts

Wednesday 4th January 2006 at 20:02

Well i scrapped the thai because it clashes with BJJ but have always liked the throws in TJJ and Judo and would love to learn it properly but no clubs that are close enough and dont clash with BJJ!:-D

______________________________

Robsco

1319 posts

Wednesday 4th January 2006 at 21:19

might let you off then - maybe :-p

A good background in Judo would make anyone an excellent BJJ'er in my book - not too many places train the takedowns and throws for BJJ.

The Admin Guy

Resident

855 posts

Thursday 5th January 2006 at 07:54

does seem like alot more BJJers are learning the Judo throws.

______________________________

spider

Regular

235 posts

Sunday 8th January 2006 at 12:04

I'm living in Scotland at the moment, in a fairly rural area. There are no BJJ here, and after seeing a TJJ bloke get submitted by a workmate who does no martial arts while they were messing about, I realised the value of competition. He got caught in a front headlock, and as they went to the ground, he had no idea he should've been trying to get his legs out of the half guard, he was just flailing a lot. It was only through my interest in the UFC that I knew about what he should've been doing, he only like the UFC when they are standing up, he doesn't like it when they are 'cuddling' and doing 'that gay stuff on the ground'.
My main winge about Judo is that I got told off during my first randori, I didn't know leg locks were not legal.

Robsco

1319 posts

Sunday 8th January 2006 at 12:49

I've always felt that Judo is too restricted, although saying that, even BJJ has some illegal moves, but they're more like neck cranks and nasty spine locks.

Judo is great for getting the takedown, but there again, there's an importance placed on landing your opponent on their back. Personally I'd want them on their side so it's easier to roll them to their front and take the back mount for the chokes, or even just take the arm for a lock.

Maybe there's a Judoka who can fill in what i'm not so aware of?

There's obviously loads of throws in Judo that doesn't land the opponent on their back, but placing such an importance on it doesn't suit me. If I take someone down, that's all I'm worried about - I got 'em down.

The Admin Guy

Resident

855 posts

Sunday 8th January 2006 at 15:24

on ilegal moves in BJJ which leg locks arent allowed is it just heel hooks and kneebars? So are achiles and toe holds allowed?

______________________________

Robsco

1319 posts

Sunday 8th January 2006 at 15:39

Achiles is fine, not too sure about heel hooks and knee bars. I'm sure knee bars are fine, and maybe heel hooks only at certain levels.

Andy's your man for the rules.

The Admin Guy

Resident

855 posts

Sunday 8th January 2006 at 16:48

what about toe holds? Baasically which leg locks are allowed at white belt comp:-p

______________________________

spider

Regular

235 posts

Sunday 8th January 2006 at 16:58

Being a complete beginner in Judo, I was in someone's open guard and I went for an achilles tendon lock during randori when I got told no leg locks. Judo does have a lot of leg locks, but it's in competition and randori that they are illegal. All sports need limitations, but I really disagree with not allowing something as safe as that particular lock.
One of the reasons leg locks were made illegal is because of safety, but also they found that Judo players were often very susceptible to them (an arguemnt to make them legal I think personally).
As with BJJ, Judo also has neck/back cranks and wrist locks that are competition illegal, an echo of their mutual origin.
I too am disappointed with the landing on their back ending a bout system, but particularly when the attacker lets go immediately. There are however, examples of Judoka jumping to guard, performing flying armbars, and taking a double leg or dragging their opponent to the ground to submit them (I'll try to find examples to post). Another way to score is to pin your opponent to the ground in a hold, being unsuccessful at this can also lead to a submission scored from the bottom player.
Personally, and as my instructor advises, I'm not letting go of my opponent until the judge has called an end to the fight.

Resident

855 posts

Sunday 8th January 2006 at 17:45

i was thinking more for bjj (know its judo post but it sort of went that way;-))

I dont think Toe holds or achiles are dangerous am i missing something ?

On wrist locks are they allowed in competition? (bjj):-D

______________________________

Robsco

1319 posts

Sunday 8th January 2006 at 20:22

I don't consider an achilles lock to be dangerous - heel hook is a different matter since it twists the knee joint, to which you might not be aware until it's too late - if someone ever catches me in a heel hook i'm sure to be tapping like a crazy man in seconds!

The Admin Guy

Bren

Addict

123 posts

Sunday 8th January 2006 at 20:56

I just checked out the rules for the "Gorillaz" comp (that Andy posted before Xmas).

Legal Techniques
- Any kind of choke (except for using the hand to close the wind pipe) with or without the use of the uniform.
- Any armbar, shoulder lock, or wrist lock
- Any Leg Lock or Ankle Lock
- Heel hooks are only allowed in the advanced division and are an instant disqualification in any other division

Illegal Techniques
- No striking / kicking of any kind
- No eye gouging or fish hooking
- No grabbing the ears
- No hair pulling, biting
- No finger or toe holds
- No thumbing
- No scratching and pinching
- No touching groin area
- No hands, knees or elbows on face
- No slippery substances allowed on body or clothing

Are these typical BJJ rules and how do they compare to Judo?

I'm a bit surprised they allow ankle cranks and heel hooks (in the advanced competition), an ankle being quite a delicate thing, one over-zealous ankle crank and you're left needing surgery.

Robsco

1319 posts

Sunday 8th January 2006 at 22:02

"one over-zealous ankle crank and you're left needing surgery"

True, but you have to catch it first. :-p

No mention of knee-bars? Strange.

They will be the official BJJ rules I presume, although that event sounds more like an ADCC style event.

The Admin Guy

Sweaty Gi

Moderator

120 posts

Monday 9th January 2006 at 02:03

Urban Gorillaz is no gi competition which usually have slightly different rules to gi competitions e.g. heel hooks are allowed (advanced only) which aren't in a gi competition

Knee bars are usually allowed in both. Again, only for advanced competitors, so there's nothing for you to worry about Rob :-))

Gi comps usually follow these [link=http://www.cbjj.com.br/english/rules.htm]rules[/link]

steve

Resident

217 posts

Monday 9th January 2006 at 11:17

Judo 'scoring' summarised....

Clean throw of opponent to land on his back (ie both shoulders touch the mat) = Ippon (full 10 point score - contest is over)

Clean throw of opponent to land almost on his back (ie one shoulder touches the mat) = Waza-Ari (7 point score) match continues

Clean throw of opponent to land on his side (ie no shoulders touch down) = Yuko (5 point score) match continues

Clean throw of opponent to land on his buttocks = Koka (3 point score) match continues.

A clean throw is where the attacking thrower has not used an illegal action to get the throw. Examples of illegal are holding a cross lapel of jacket for more than 5 seconds, or holding below belt line onto pants for more than 5 seconds, or a drag down where attacker has deliberately gone to ground and attempts then to pull the defender onto the ground with him (eg holding a de la riva guard from on your back and trying to then sweep opponent to the ground). Also illegal throws are ones in which either the attacker 'head dives' to the mat to get the throw, or he causes the defender to 'head dive' into the mat, both are considered dangerous and will result in a disqualification.

A player may follow up to a throw which has not scored the Ippon, onto the ground, if he maintains a grip on the opponent as he hits the floor and he does the follow up immediately.

Once on the ground a legal submission (tap out) scores Ippon (fight over), or a 'controlled pin down' scores points as follows...

Opponent has to be kept with his back (one or both shoulder blades) to the mat, the attacker must have his legs free from guard or half guard when doing this. Once the pin down is held (termed osae-komi) a timer is started, if the pin is held for 10 seconds a koka is scored, 15 seconds a yuko, 20 seeconds a waza-ari and 25 seconds an Ippon. If the pin gets broken the clock stops (termed toketa) and is re-started when the pin is re-stablished.

To win a contest within the match time limit either Ippon is scored, or two waza-ari scores (or disqualification for major rule infringement termed honsoku-maki, or culmination of several minor or medium infringements termed shido and chui respectively.

Note - time on the floor is limited, if there is no positive action in the attackers attempt to submit, or he cannot gain pindown control within approximately 5 seconds, then both players are made to stand up again. This does not mean a limit of 5 secs on the ground but that there has to be deliberate progressive action for an allowance of more than 5 seconds to be given.:-D

"Its not the size of the dog i

spider

Regular

235 posts

Monday 9th January 2006 at 12:11

Just a slight addition to the throw scoring, contrary to the always landing on the back thing.

Ippon (10 points, equivilent to a knockout) is scored when the contestant with control throws the other (largely on his back) with considerable force and speed.

Waza-ari (7 points) is scored when the contestent throws the other but is lacking any one of the elements needed for Ippon.

Yuko (5 points) is scored when a contestant throws another but is lacking two of the Ippon elements i.e. lacking in 'largely on back' and either speed or force, or lacking in both speed and force.

Koka (3 points) is scored when the contestant with control throws the other onto one shoulder, thigh or buttocks with both speed and force.

That boring example was from Judo- the essential guide, by Alex Butcher.
They do encourage throwing the opponent onto the back, but I'm hoping I will get to do some groundwork in competition, as I would choose to do BJJ if it was an option. A lot of Judoka seem to be obsessed with the throws and not know much of armlocks(anyone heard of the Fusen-Ryu vs Kodokan competition?).

In comparison to BJJ and illegal competition techniques, I know you're not allowed to strangle with your belt ends or the bottom of your jacket. Wrist locks and leg locks of all kinds are not allowed either.