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Smiffy
Spectator
6 posts
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Tuesday 7th April 2009 at 19:44
Hi all
How many times have you seen something like this written up by someone trying to promote grappling sports--
"Over 95% of street fights finish on the ground, hence ground-fighting skills are extremely important for self-defense. Taking an attacker to the ground eliminates around 80% of their arsenal, leaving you in a perfect position to finish the fight. Of course if there is more than one attacker, taking the fight to the ground is one of the worst moves imaginable for obvious reasons."
Well lets look at that statement--
"Over 95% of street fights finish on the ground,"
Really, who did the research? citations please! Perhaps this is true - because most people beaten in a fight end up on the ground. Doesn't mean that's the best place to be. I'de prefer to have a knock out strike and disappear up the road than still be rolling around in the rain soaked gutter trying for a choke when the old bill turn up. Swift kick in the nuts, then have it away on yer toes - safe.
"hence ground-fighting skills are extremely important for self-defense."
Sure! but so is the ability to not get knocked out before you get a chance to dominate on the ground.
"Taking an attacker to the ground eliminates around 80% of their arsenal,"
Unless of course your attacker turns out to be a black belt at some grappling discipline
"leaving you in a perfect position to finish the fight."
Except when they do something that takes you by surprise and is illegal in the sport e.g. like biting your nose off or sticking a biro in your eye- then you won't be so cocky!
"Of course if there is more than one attacker,"
Surely that never happens in a fair fight in the street when your pissed and barely able to stand!!!
Oh yeah maybe that's why 95% of statistics are made up on the spot, err I mean 95% of fights end up on the ground.
"taking the fight to the ground is one of the worst moves imaginable for obvious reasons."
What obvious reasons are they then? Can't I take multiple attackers to the ground and eliminate 80% of all their arses I mean arsenals. (I have done this several times)
Learning fighting skills makes you better at fighting than if you had not learnt them and that's about all you can say.
It doesn't guarantee you a win and doesn't guarantee you'll beat someone who has not trained formally. Nobody has an unbeatable system (except me of course)
Cheers Smiffy
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Robsco
1319 posts
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Wednesday 8th April 2009 at 00:09
Not quite sure of the aim of that post.
Please enlighten.
If you're used to standing and fighting for any length of time, then great, and lucky you, but I've not seen many fights on the street carry on like a boxing match. People grab and pull, and unfortunately end up on the ground most of the time, sometimes on their tod getting the sh*t kicked out of them.
Now, would I rather learn to kickbox, and if that unfortunate fight happen to me, being on the floor being kicked to crap? Or perhaps learning a whole range of skills, striking and grappling, and knowing, that if the unfortunate did happen to me, I'd atleast have a chance of getting back on my feet with minimal damage.
Hmmmm, a tricky one.
If we're talking about street fights, then yes, I'd love to be a top Muay Thai expert, able to knock someone out in one, but unfortunately we have reality to deal with.
Mixed martial arts is the key, and Ju-Jitsu thankfully teaches a whole range of skills and techniques.
The Admin Guy
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Smiffy
Spectator
6 posts
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Wednesday 8th April 2009 at 18:47
Robsco
Q Not quite sure of the aim of that post.
Please enlighten.
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A) Sweeping statements that have a pseudo statistic in them to make their point look authentic are usually not backed by any reliable research and are worthless hyperbole. Usually it is some self proclaimed master of some obscure martial art that makes such statements with the intention of drawing the gullible and desperate into their associations and clubs with the promise of the perfect unbeatable system. I find that slightly irritating and worth a few words on a casual blog. Captain Chris “world leader in self defence†springs to mind here.
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Q) If you're used to standing and fighting for any length of time, then great, and lucky you, but I've not seen many fights on the street carry on like a boxing match. People grab and pull, and unfortunately end up on the ground most of the time, sometimes on their tod getting the sh*t kicked out of them.
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A) So, I have 40 years of martial arts training and competition up to international standard mostly Judo and Kyokushin karate, plus kickboxing boxing Akijutsu and for the last three years BJJ. I also spent 15years as a doorman and in my experience people in fights, especially group fights, attack and back off then attack again. I would say they actively avoid going to the ground. When they end up on the ground having the sh*t kicked out of them by several assailants it’s usually too late to call upon groundwork skill because they have already lost.
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Q) Now, would I rather learn to kickbox, and if that unfortunate fight happen to me, being on the floor being kicked to crap? Or perhaps learning a whole range of skills, striking and grappling, and knowing, that if the unfortunate did happen to me, I'd at least have a chance of getting back on my feet with minimal damage.
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A)If you’re not used to ‘street fighting’ then I will tell you that things don’t go to plan but martial arts training will help out and suddenly you’ll do a technique that will surprise you just as much as your assailant. However you must be prepared to do what it takes as well, which often includes using some ‘technique’ that is not part of your usual syllabus e.g. take the standing head lock and ram the head into a nearby wall or take the standing wrist lock and as their head goes down kick them in the nose (making sure there are no cameras watching) then leave swiftly, the police always arrest the winner especially when there a lot of blood involved. These are not boasts or instructions just examples, personally I have found Judo to be the most useful but that is because it is my No1 sport (although I’m really enjoying BJJ at present) Being thrown with force onto a hard surface takes the fight out of most people.
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Q) Hmmmm, a tricky one.
If we're talking about street fights, then yes, I'd love to be a top Muay Thai expert, able to knock someone out in one, but unfortunately we have reality to deal with.
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A) Don’t know what you mean by “have reality to deal with†if you want a knock out punch do boxing for 6 months. I have a theory tho that people come for the self defense and stay for the sport. In other words you do the discipline that you enjoy regardless of its effectivenss in a street fight that most people will never be involved in. Strange thing is the more confident you become the less you’ll wlak away and so more likely to end up fighting, paradoxical eh!
The point is Robsco nothing is guaranteed and I know guys who are rubbish in the dojo or gym but in a real fight can batter someone senseless in seconds. That’s because in the gym they are lazy or unmotivated but in the bar fight they are prepared to get in first and do what it takes. However several of them have also been to jail for 18months as a result. Me, I prefer a judo throw, wrist or arm lock finished of by a strangle when needed. When needs be tho, I recognise where I need to do the nastiest thing I can think of before the other guy does. This is where training comes in, it gives you that extra bit of thinking time or reaction time and the ability to take a blow or two and still operate efficiently. This will always happen where you are in a mob fight especially and training to accept hard knocks is very important. The arts that don’t include this aspect are missing a large chunk of self defence strategy.
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Q) Mixed martial arts is the key, and Ju-Jitsu thankfully teaches a whole range of skills and techniques.
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A) Yeah! agree mostly, forget about the silly pressure point techniques tho. They are only good for impressing the girls that watch and soft newbies.
Regards Smiffy
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Robsco
1319 posts
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Wednesday 8th April 2009 at 19:14
lol far too much to read. :-p
pressure points, yes, a waste of bloody time.
It sounds like we're agreeing on most things anyway.
And yes, you'll see lots of sweeping statements on websites, cos some (like ours) take a more relaxed view and not meant to be read as a dissertation.
The Admin Guy
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spider
Regular
235 posts
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Thursday 9th April 2009 at 13:43
To translate, I think he said, 'I like MMA, but watch out biros'
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Smiffy
Spectator
6 posts
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Thursday 9th April 2009 at 18:07
Robsco
You wrote
"And yes, you'll see lots of sweeping statements on websites, cos some (like ours) take a more relaxed view and not meant to be read as a dissertation".
And yet your mission statement is --
"The Ultimate Online Resource for Ju Jitsu and Street Fighting Self Defence"
Which to me suggests an aspiration to provide useful and unequivocal information thru comment and discussion.
Are you saying this is not the case?
What is the point of discussing an argument that is clearly invalid from the outset?
Lol Smiffy
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Robsco
1319 posts
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Thursday 9th April 2009 at 22:34
Firstly, why does "Smiffy" sound so familiar? ;o)
an "argument"? who said there was an argument? Did you come looking or trying to instigate an argument?
We provide lots of techniques and discussions... simple as.
I can't seriously believe you're trying to bring a "strap-line" into this now. lol. Even worse to think it's the "mission statement" of this site. Do you see this site as a corporate institution in some way?
The "aspiration" for this site has never actually existed, believe it or not, it's slowly grown for the past 9 years simply by a passion for martial arts, and its popularity by it's users, not by some slogan or a paragraph on one page.
If you don't think this site gives useful information, it might appear you're in the minority.
Perhaps you've been slightly mis-guided in what this site is here for. No-one here is looking for an argument, and if ya wanna get on a high-horse, then go ahead. I don't think most people here are really that interested.
Either that, or you just feel the need to be a keyboard warrior and a grudge to bear?
I dunno, but it all sounds a bit odd.
For a martial artist with 40 years of experience to come on a forum with all this percepted anger, it is confusing to say the least.
The Admin Guy
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Smiffy
Spectator
6 posts
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Tuesday 14th April 2009 at 13:29
“ why does "Smiffy" sound so familiar?â€
It’s a popular nickname!!
“an "argument"? who said there was an argument? Did you come looking or trying to instigate an argument? “
Just so you know what I mean by the term argument;
In logic, an argument is a set of one or more meaningful declarative sentences (or "propositions") known as the premises along with another meaningful declarative sentence (or "proposition") known as the conclusion. A deductive argument asserts that the truth of the conclusion is a logical consequence of the premises; an inductive argument asserts that the truth of the conclusion is supported by the premises.
Furthermore and argument is invalid if the Premise is not true or at least has an acceptable level of probability of truthfulness.
So to say
“Over 95% of street fights finish on the ground, hence ground-fighting skills are extremely important for self-defence. Taking an attacker to the ground eliminates around 80% of their arsenal, leaving you in a perfect position to finish the fight.â€
Is invalid since the 1st declaration that 95% of street fight end up on the ground is unproven and most probably untrue. This statement also infers that the grounded condition is one of a continuing fight and not the conclusion of a fight; again this is totally unproven.
The second declaration is that 80% of an attackers arsenal is eliminated by taking them to the ground. This assumption is completely unreasonable, why is it that one fighter becomes more enabled as the other becomes less enabled during the mutually equal action of going to ground. The condition is the same for both and not related to fighting ability.
This is like saying that in a car race then the solution to reducing the capability of the other car winning the race is to remove the petrol from both cars. The assumption being that because you also have an electric motor you can keep going without petrol, except that you have no idea whether or not the other car has an electric motor too.
In the 95% argument, the premises are at best unproven and the conclusion is neither supported by the premises or a logical consequence of them.
“We provide lots of techniques and discussions... simple as.â€
Good for you! Is that the limitation then, discussion of techniques?
“The "aspiration" for this site has never actually existed, believe it or not,â€
You aspire to nothing, seems unusual!
“ it's slowly grown for the past 9 years simply by a passion for martial arts, and its popularity by it's users, not by some slogan or a paragraph on one page.â€
So it’s not the “Ultimate online resource for Ju Jitsu and street fighting†then.
You didn’t aspire to that when you started the site even tho it’s your strapline? Makes sense???
Passion without aspiration, is that possible?
“If you don't think this site gives useful information, it might appear you're in the minority. “
Where did I say that?
You started on the defensive without any prompting from me, I was merely making the point that many make unreasonable statements about martial arts and treat them as if they were true when most probably they are not.
“Either that, or you just feel the need to be a keyboard warrior “
Oh Yeah that’s me. Good fun too!
“For a martial artist with 40 years of experience to come on a forum with all this percepted anger, it is confusing to say the least.â€
No anger (I assume you meant perceived) just putting forward a simple point that apparently makes you feel intimidated judging by your defensive response.
“I dunno, but it all sounds a bit odd.â€
Doesn’t it!
In future, if I return to this site, I promise I’ll stick to discussing techniques (whatever that will achieve) and won’t confuse or intimidate anyone with argument outside the scope of this forum
Cheers Smiffy
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Robsco
1319 posts
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Tuesday 14th April 2009 at 21:57
“We provide lots of techniques and discussions... simple as.â€
Good for you! Is that the limitation then, discussion of techniques?
“The "aspiration" for this site has never actually existed, believe it or not,â€
You aspire to nothing, seems unusual!
“ it's slowly grown for the past 9 years simply by a passion for martial arts, and its popularity by it's users, not by some slogan or a paragraph on one page.â€
So it’s not the “Ultimate online resource for Ju Jitsu and street fighting†then.
I think after those I've given up.
Let's face it, the only people spending the time reading this post is us.
If it makes you happy, whatever you say.
The Admin Guy
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Smiffy
Spectator
6 posts
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Wednesday 15th April 2009 at 08:34
Robsco
See the problem with discussion without a valid argument? It gives you a false sense of security but in fact your premises are easily discredited and you have to give up your stance perhaps with a desperate but ineffectual departing quip.
This is the same when one believes in a false premise (or even a false promise) in terms of fighting or self defence systems. Eventually and often too late, when tested one finds that the promise was hollow and the system is left wanting.
All the best Smiffy
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spider
Regular
235 posts
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Wednesday 15th April 2009 at 11:00
Even I can't be bothered to read all that drivel.
There were no promises or trade. Rob set this place up for people with interest in martial arts that are few and far between to discuss different ideas, an exchange of free ideas.
Thanks Rob.
It didn't originally have sponsorship and was difficult to financially keep going until he found donations and sponsorship. I've met martial arts clubs all over britain, and they all had one or two members that have been on here and used the forum/techniques section and appretiate it.
The real question is why are you here?
Where is your site that is worthy of your praise from your mighty soap box?
Do you realise there are shops all over the nation selling lies? I've been to several branches of PC World, and not a single one of them was a world made of PCs. Toys 'r' Us are not made of toys, and other shops are able to sell toys so they aren't even exclusive. The world must be a confusing place for you.
Nobody else is reading this because it is long, boring and pointless. Stuff like this is what kills forums.
Nice one douche, hope you find your teddy and feel better soon.
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Robsco
1319 posts
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Wednesday 15th April 2009 at 13:47
Smiffy, you came here just looking for an argument, what a shallow approach for coming to a martial arts forum, especially as such a great martial artist yourself.
Sorry, but I just don't have time to read all your waffle, or spend the time replying - it's not giving up, it's having better things to do with my time.
I'm not exactly sure what you're initial argument was about? BJJ? Something you train in yourself? Something which was proven against other martial arts when simply pitted one style against another.
The Admin Guy
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jonnyriley
Spectator
3 posts
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Tuesday 26th May 2009 at 14:02
40 years ehh!a big part of any art is breathing,i think smiffy needs to take a breath.and dont you ever worry about conflict in the street as it looks like you could talk your way out of anything,or talk them to sleep.lol
jriley
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steve
Resident
217 posts
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Tuesday 2nd June 2009 at 14:44
Got bored half way through the threads..lighten up guys! I agree people do martial arts of one kind or another because they enjoy doing so (as opposed to any other kind of pass-time), or because it should help in support of their profession (soldier, doorman, policeman, competative fighter). If its not as a suport for a profession, then unless you are some idiot who gets into fights because of a stupid lifestyle, it doesn't really matter what art you train as long as you enjoy it.
"Its not the size of the dog i
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