learning first kata (jujitsu)

Author	Comments
TrapDoor Regular 20 posts	Sunday 2nd May 2004 at 17:06 So I ended up joining jujitsu and I've had 2 classes so far (I get 3 free ones before I have to pay and actually become a part of the class). I have a question about the katas though. I'm expected to learn my first one through observation and emulation. I tried following along but considering it was totally new to me, I really couldn't get much more then 2 steps maybe even though he repeated it (the whole class was going along with it) maybe 3-4 times. My question is, how exactly are katas sapposed to be taught? I'm fine with the way it is, but I'm a VERY slow observational learning so maybe for some support, how long did it take you guys to learn katas?
TrapDoor Regular 20 posts	Sunday 2nd May 2004 at 17:12 oh and it's actually not jujitsu, but jukijitsu...anyone know the difference?
steve Resident 217 posts	Sunday 2nd May 2004 at 20:23 Ju Jitsu = flexible / adaptable / yeilding way of fighting Ki when used in martial arts terms usually means internal energy so I'd guess the teachers has trained in ju jitsu and some oter arts that focus on developing Ki (sanchin training method used in traditional karate perhaps) and so he has incorporated Ki into the name....flexible fighting method utilising internal energy? And kata needs explanation or it is meaningless...without the explanation / understanding the moves are alien. Kood kata is as much about the thought process when practicing as it is about the sequence of the moves. "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog" "Its not the size of the dog i
steve Resident 217 posts	Sunday 2nd May 2004 at 20:23 Ju Jitsu = flexible / adaptable / yeilding way of fighting Ki when used in martial arts terms usually means internal energy so I'd guess the teachers has trained in ju jitsu and some oter arts that focus on developing Ki (sanchin training method used in traditional karate perhaps) and so he has incorporated Ki into the name....flexible fighting method utilising internal energy? And kata needs explanation or it is meaningless...without the explanation / understanding the moves are alien. Kood kata is as much about the thought process when practicing as it is about the sequence of the moves. "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog" "Its not the size of the dog i
steve Resident 217 posts	Sunday 2nd May 2004 at 20:24 PS sorry about the typing errors..I rushed the post...sure you can follow it anyway "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog" "Its not the size of the dog i
andy Resident 729 posts	Monday 3rd May 2004 at 11:31 I personally see no benefit to Katas they are crap. If katas were good, boxing, muay thai, wrestling and Bjj would have katas. pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"
Dave Addict 183 posts	Monday 3rd May 2004 at 16:53 Yeah kata's are a load of bollocks. Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Postman Pat and his Black and white Catttt. Early in the mornin when the nah nah deedle dat da do!!!!! Ah fuct it right up Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Post
Robsco 1319 posts	Monday 3rd May 2004 at 17:31 Kata's are a waste of time for BJJ etc as andy and dave said, but for someone needing to learn them for traditional ju-jitsu, how about a little help. I'm sure we've all been there, done that. I've only ever had to learn 2 kata's, prob took 2 weeks to get the hang of them, i'd recommend practicing them as much as you can, not just when you're training. Don't try the whole lot to start with, just concentrate on the first few movements and get them nailed down then add to it. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth' The Admin Guy
andy Resident 729 posts	Monday 3rd May 2004 at 22:39 Katas serve no purpose, even in Traditional Martial Arts. pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"
Robsco 1319 posts	Tuesday 4th May 2004 at 00:31 True, they serve no real purpose, apart from showing you can do them, but if someone's learning them for a belt, then they obviously have to learn it, or do the sensible thing and learn something useful, but then again, we get into old chestnut of why people train in MA. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth' The Admin Guy
Stupid Kids Newbie 16 posts	Tuesday 4th May 2004 at 13:55 No one in here has a clue. You truely show your ignorance in MA when you talk about one style being superior to another. As for kata, if you don't think it's worth a shit, you don't understand it. You are to far down the sport path. This could be an endless rant because I can tell you people have lost a lot of ground due to the fact that you claim BJJ is so much better than anything else, what a bunch of garbage. You all have a false sense of security regarding your technique, and would be hurt if not killed in a street confrontation. The fact that you can roll around on the ground fighting for position doesn't do you shit in real life, only on the mat. Good luck with your tournaments, where you win ugly plastic trophies, and fake gold medals. What a joke!
Bassmonger Resident 198 posts	Tuesday 4th May 2004 at 16:37 I hope you're just trying to wind people up, because if not, you can't read. No-one on here has claimed to be some streetfighting tough guy, especially through use of BJJ. In fact, most people on here say that the best thing to do if you get started on is to leg it (I fully agree with this, and have run from a pair of would-be muggers before now). Out of interest, what would you do if forced into a 'real' fight? Whip out some funky karate kata, while shouting "KEEEEEEEEEEE-AIIIIIII!"? "I like my jiu-jitsu the same way as I like pubic hair on a lady" DEFEATED IN AL
Robsco 1319 posts	Tuesday 4th May 2004 at 17:44 I think the only common statement has been that kata's are pointless for street fighting, in which a mix of Boxing, Muay Thai, and BJJ have proven their superriority (sp?). These arts do not use kata's. Please don't get into the old 'BJJ is pants, karate is better' or anything like that, it's not surprising BJJ gets slated all the time, since it has proven to be the best art when pitted against anything else as a pure match-up, ie, NOT MMA. People have this fear of something better. People who train BJJ don't suggest it is the best, it has been proven, now your chance for the 'Vale Tudo is a sport' discussion. Kata's serve no purpose in a street fight, however, if you're not training MA for street fighting or No-Holds-Barred, and it's a hobby, and you're interested in Eastern methods, then fine, learn a style that suits you and learn kata's and everything else, and most of all, be happy. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth' The Admin Guy
TrapDoor Regular 20 posts	Tuesday 4th May 2004 at 21:35 Hey folks. I apologise for indirectly starting an argument. Back to why I started this thread. My first kata is (I dont know how to spell it) suki-kata, and it only involves blocking and punching (assuming I butched the spelling so much no one knows what im talking about). It's either the first or second kata, before or after itchi-kata (which I also don't know, im so new to this all that its very confusing). I had a class the other day where a yellow belt was repeating it over and over and over again for me, while I tried to follow along. When he would finish, he would ask me to repeat but I would totally forget how to even start it. It got so embarressing that I didn't want to ask him to repeat it anymore because I was scared to make him angry. Again we did this for about 15 minutes straight before the rest of the class came in from bokken training. I'm so slow in learning things like this, and I really need practice all the time but I cant practice since I dont know what to do. Are there maybe any sites with pictures as to how to do sukikata? I talked to my english teacher today in school (our sensai) about my problem and he said he would help me out at the next class, but I have a feeling Shihan Wayne wont give much time. He tends to run the class military style, and doesn't really let others go off to train on certain things they are having trouble with. But I don't know him to well, so he could give me time to practice, or he could not, so I shouldn't be talking. Anyway sorry for a rant, I'd just like some info on sukikata, what its for, the steps in it and maybe some pictures or descriptive steps for it. I know I should be practicing at home, but it's hard to practice what I don't know. Thanks Guys and Girls.
Robsco 1319 posts	Tuesday 4th May 2004 at 22:29 Don't worry yourself about what you "don't" know, what's the point in that? I don't know about quantum physics, but it doesn't bother me? not really. Even if you have a hard-ass teacher (who sounds like he shouln't be teaching you in the first place) just concentrate on the first few moves, and ignore everything after, and practice what you know. No-one seriously expects you to pick it up in the first few showings. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth' The Admin Guy
Dave Addict 183 posts	Wednesday 5th May 2004 at 20:07 First of all who is the clown who called us all stupid kids? You know fuck all about what i can do in the street nor anyone else on this forum so now whos ignorant? The point most of us were making is that kata's are shit and i will always think they are shit regardless of what some mystery typer says and if you think they work in real life then your a muppet! Katas are nothing but shit traditional dances with lots of squeeling and moaning so dont tell me they work in the street coz they dont! I know what works in real life and what works in martial arts so go an bark up a tree instead of on here. You also forgot to mention guns, knifes, broken glasses/bottles being part of real life! No fucking kata or martial art can deal with a nutter who wants to kill you except the arts called 'luck', 'agression' and '1500 metre sprint'! Your a clown who hasnt read the post properly. Regarding the BJJ, its a great martial art and can be made to work in any environment as long as you understand the situation your in. No one said anything about using BJJ in the street as fighting on the ground is the last place you want to be, however if a fight goes to the ground then knowing BJJ is more helpful than not knowing it, as sweeps and reversals can be used on any size person which in my eyes is an advantage. I do BJJ coz its a great fighting art and when blended with Thai boxing, boxing, biting, eye gougeing and groin shots you have a complete package. The guys on here enjoy BJJ and dont do it to be street heroes they do it coz they enjoy it. I mean no offence to anyone on this site except Mr Kata. Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Postman Pat and his Black and white Catttt. Early in the mornin when the nah nah deedle dat da do!!!!! Ah fuct it right up Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Post
TrapDoor Regular 20 posts	Thursday 6th May 2004 at 01:58 sunshine lollipops and rainbows dodododo! first spar tonight (ever) and it went well, they slowed down for me though but thats ok, im learning!
jujitsu2004 Newbie 13 posts	Thursday 6th May 2004 at 10:59 The thing about all this arguing kids, is: different people = different opinions, different lives, different mentalities, etc. What Robsco sais is true, if you practice one art for its traditionality or street fighting aspects and because it 'suits' yourself, then keep at it, if not - you know where the door is. No point in arguing about these things... one opinion is one opinion, another is another.
steve Resident 217 posts	Friday 7th May 2004 at 21:48 Kata is about drilling to perfection. A simple traditional example would be moving between stances in karate say zen-kutsu-dachi, to ko-kutsu-dachi, to neko-ashi-dachi (translation forward stance to back stance to 'cat' stance). First time moving between the stances, ballance will be poor, timing poor, co-ordination of arms & legs & centre will be poor, thought will be on the movement not what the movement is for, etc. After repeating many times all these will improve and become 'naturalised'. Once naturalised you can further tune each part of the movement, experiment with it, adapt it, LEARN FROM IT e.g self discovery as opposed to being taught. This is the essence of kata, whether it be stances as described, or shrimping in BJJ, you learn the basic sequence, drill it, adapt it with your other learned experiences (the way YOU shrimp will become suited to YOUR experience in 'rolling'). Hope this makes sence, if you have studied long enough it will, kata is neither crap nor brilliant....it is purely a means to an end, a training tool. It may be very useful to some and useless to others, so you make your choise to use it or dismiss it. "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog" "Its not the size of the dog i
Ross Regular 100 posts	Wednesday 12th May 2004 at 20:51 if an instructor hasnt by your second class taken some time to help you out and show you a thing or two, or at least made you feel welcome there, mate id go find a wrestling or boxing class. p.s. katas are useless for fighting, but they look pretty similar to breakdancing, but i would rather do breakdancing than a ma with kata's My prediction is pain

Author

Comments

Regular

20 posts

Sunday 2nd May 2004 at 17:06

So I ended up joining jujitsu and I've had 2 classes so far (I get 3 free ones before I have to pay and actually become a part of the class). I have a question about the katas though.

I'm expected to learn my first one through observation and emulation. I tried following along but considering it was totally new to me, I really couldn't get much more then 2 steps maybe even though he repeated it (the whole class was going along with it) maybe 3-4 times.

My question is, how exactly are katas sapposed to be taught? I'm fine with the way it is, but I'm a VERY slow observational learning so maybe for some support, how long did it take you guys to learn katas?

TrapDoor

Regular

20 posts

Sunday 2nd May 2004 at 17:12

oh and it's actually not jujitsu, but jukijitsu...anyone know the difference?

steve

Resident

217 posts

Sunday 2nd May 2004 at 20:23

Ju Jitsu = flexible / adaptable / yeilding way of fighting

Ki when used in martial arts terms usually means internal energy

so I'd guess the teachers has trained in ju jitsu and some oter arts that focus on developing Ki (sanchin training method used in traditional karate perhaps) and so he has incorporated Ki into the name....flexible fighting method utilising internal energy?

And kata needs explanation or it is meaningless...without the explanation / understanding the moves are alien. Kood kata is as much about the thought process when practicing as it is about the sequence of the moves. "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog"

"Its not the size of the dog i

steve

Resident

217 posts

Sunday 2nd May 2004 at 20:23

"Its not the size of the dog i

steve

Resident

217 posts

Sunday 2nd May 2004 at 20:24

PS sorry about the typing errors..I rushed the post...sure you can follow it anyway "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog"

"Its not the size of the dog i

andy

Resident

729 posts

Monday 3rd May 2004 at 11:31

I personally see no benefit to Katas they are crap. If katas were good, boxing, muay thai, wrestling and Bjj would have katas. pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

Dave

Addict

183 posts

Monday 3rd May 2004 at 16:53

Yeah kata's are a load of bollocks. Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Postman Pat and his Black and white Catttt. Early in the mornin when the nah nah deedle dat da do!!!!! Ah fuct it right up

Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Post

Robsco

1319 posts

Monday 3rd May 2004 at 17:31

Kata's are a waste of time for BJJ etc as andy and dave said, but for someone needing to learn them for traditional ju-jitsu, how about a little help.

I'm sure we've all been there, done that.

I've only ever had to learn 2 kata's, prob took 2 weeks to get the hang of them, i'd recommend practicing them as much as you can, not just when you're training.

Don't try the whole lot to start with, just concentrate on the first few movements and get them nailed down then add to it. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth'

The Admin Guy

andy

Resident

729 posts

Monday 3rd May 2004 at 22:39

Katas serve no purpose, even in Traditional Martial Arts. pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

Robsco

1319 posts

Tuesday 4th May 2004 at 00:31

True, they serve no real purpose, apart from showing you can do them, but if someone's learning them for a belt, then they obviously have to learn it, or do the sensible thing and learn something useful, but then again, we get into old chestnut of why people train in MA. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth'

The Admin Guy

Stupid Kids

Newbie

16 posts

Tuesday 4th May 2004 at 13:55

No one in here has a clue. You truely show your ignorance in MA when you talk about one style being superior to another. As for kata, if you don't think it's worth a shit, you don't understand it. You are to far down the sport path. This could be an endless rant because I can tell you people have lost a lot of ground due to the fact that you claim BJJ is so much better than anything else, what a bunch of garbage. You all have a false sense of security regarding your technique, and would be hurt if not killed in a street confrontation. The fact that you can roll around on the ground fighting for position doesn't do you shit in real life, only on the mat. Good luck with your tournaments, where you win ugly plastic trophies, and fake gold medals. What a joke!

Bassmonger

Resident

198 posts

Tuesday 4th May 2004 at 16:37

I hope you're just trying to wind people up, because if not, you can't read. No-one on here has claimed to be some streetfighting tough guy, especially through use of BJJ. In fact, most people on here say that the best thing to do if you get started on is to leg it (I fully agree with this, and have run from a pair of would-be muggers before now).

Out of interest, what would you do if forced into a 'real' fight? Whip out some funky karate kata, while shouting "KEEEEEEEEEEE-AIIIIIII!"? "I like my jiu-jitsu the same way as I like pubic hair on a lady"

DEFEATED IN AL

Robsco

1319 posts

Tuesday 4th May 2004 at 17:44

I think the only common statement has been that kata's are pointless for street fighting, in which a mix of Boxing, Muay Thai, and BJJ have proven their superriority (sp?). These arts do not use kata's.

Please don't get into the old 'BJJ is pants, karate is better' or anything like that, it's not surprising BJJ gets slated all the time, since it has proven to be the best art when pitted against anything else as a pure match-up, ie, NOT MMA. People have this fear of something better.

People who train BJJ don't suggest it is the best, it has been proven, now your chance for the 'Vale Tudo is a sport' discussion.

Kata's serve no purpose in a street fight, however, if you're not training MA for street fighting or No-Holds-Barred, and it's a hobby, and you're interested in Eastern methods, then fine, learn a style that suits you and learn kata's and everything else, and most of all, be happy. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth'

The Admin Guy

TrapDoor

Regular

20 posts

Tuesday 4th May 2004 at 21:35

Hey folks. I apologise for indirectly starting an argument.

Back to why I started this thread. My first kata is (I dont know how to spell it) suki-kata, and it only involves blocking and punching (assuming I butched the spelling so much no one knows what im talking about). It's either the first or second kata, before or after itchi-kata (which I also don't know, im so new to this all that its very confusing).

I had a class the other day where a yellow belt was repeating it over and over and over again for me, while I tried to follow along. When he would finish, he would ask me to repeat but I would totally forget how to even start it. It got so embarressing that I didn't want to ask him to repeat it anymore because I was scared to make him angry. Again we did this for about 15 minutes straight before the rest of the class came in from bokken training.

I'm so slow in learning things like this, and I really need practice all the time but I cant practice since I dont know what to do. Are there maybe any sites with pictures as to how to do sukikata?

I talked to my english teacher today in school (our sensai) about my problem and he said he would help me out at the next class, but I have a feeling Shihan Wayne wont give much time. He tends to run the class military style, and doesn't really let others go off to train on certain things they are having trouble with. But I don't know him to well, so he could give me time to practice, or he could not, so I shouldn't be talking.

Anyway sorry for a rant, I'd just like some info on sukikata, what its for, the steps in it and maybe some pictures or descriptive steps for it. I know I should be practicing at home, but it's hard to practice what I don't know.

Thanks Guys and Girls.

Robsco

1319 posts

Tuesday 4th May 2004 at 22:29

Don't worry yourself about what you "don't" know, what's the point in that? I don't know about quantum physics, but it doesn't bother me? not really.

Even if you have a hard-ass teacher (who sounds like he shouln't be teaching you in the first place) just concentrate on the first few moves, and ignore everything after, and practice what you know. No-one seriously expects you to pick it up in the first few showings. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth'

The Admin Guy

Dave

Addict

183 posts

Wednesday 5th May 2004 at 20:07

First of all who is the clown who called us all stupid kids?

You know fuck all about what i can do in the street nor anyone else on this forum so now whos ignorant?

The point most of us were making is that kata's are shit and i will always think they are shit regardless of what some mystery typer says and if you think they work in real life then your a muppet!

Katas are nothing but shit traditional dances with lots of squeeling and moaning so dont tell me they work in the street coz they dont! I know what works in real life and what works in martial arts so go an bark up a tree instead of on here.

You also forgot to mention guns, knifes, broken glasses/bottles being part of real life! No fucking kata or martial art can deal with a nutter who wants to kill you except the arts called 'luck', 'agression' and '1500 metre sprint'! Your a clown who hasnt read the post properly.

Regarding the BJJ, its a great martial art and can be made to work in any environment as long as you understand the situation your in.
No one said anything about using BJJ in the street as fighting on the ground is the last place you want to be, however if a fight goes to the ground then knowing BJJ is more helpful than not knowing it, as sweeps and reversals can be used on any size person which in my eyes is an advantage. I do BJJ coz its a great fighting art and when blended with Thai boxing, boxing, biting, eye gougeing and groin shots you have a complete package.

The guys on here enjoy BJJ and dont do it to be street heroes they do it coz they enjoy it.

I mean no offence to anyone on this site except Mr Kata.
Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Postman Pat and his Black and white Catttt. Early in the mornin when the nah nah deedle dat da do!!!!! Ah fuct it right up

Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Post

TrapDoor

Regular

20 posts

Thursday 6th May 2004 at 01:58

sunshine lollipops and rainbows dodododo!

first spar tonight (ever) and it went well, they slowed down for me though but thats ok, im learning!

jujitsu2004

Newbie

13 posts

Thursday 6th May 2004 at 10:59

The thing about all this arguing kids, is: different people = different opinions, different lives, different mentalities, etc. What Robsco sais is true, if you practice one art for its traditionality or street fighting aspects and because it 'suits' yourself, then keep at it, if not - you know where the door is.
No point in arguing about these things... one opinion is one opinion, another is another.

steve

Resident

217 posts

Friday 7th May 2004 at 21:48

Kata is about drilling to perfection. A simple traditional example would be moving between stances in karate say zen-kutsu-dachi, to ko-kutsu-dachi, to neko-ashi-dachi (translation forward stance to back stance to 'cat' stance). First time moving between the stances, ballance will be poor, timing poor, co-ordination of arms & legs & centre will be poor, thought will be on the movement not what the movement is for, etc. After repeating many times all these will improve and become 'naturalised'. Once naturalised you can further tune each part of the movement, experiment with it, adapt it, LEARN FROM IT e.g self discovery as opposed to being taught.

This is the essence of kata, whether it be stances as described, or shrimping in BJJ, you learn the basic sequence, drill it, adapt it with your other learned experiences (the way YOU shrimp will become suited to YOUR experience in 'rolling').

Hope this makes sence, if you have studied long enough it will, kata is neither crap nor brilliant....it is purely a means to an end, a training tool. It may be very useful to some and useless to others, so you make your choise to use it or dismiss it. "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog"

"Its not the size of the dog i

Ross

Regular

100 posts

Wednesday 12th May 2004 at 20:51

if an instructor hasnt by your second class taken some time to help you out and show you a thing or two, or at least made you feel welcome there, mate id go find a wrestling or boxing class.

p.s. katas are useless for fighting, but they look pretty similar to breakdancing, but i would rather do breakdancing than a ma with kata's My prediction is pain