Ju jutsu and brasilian ju jutsu

Author	Comments
Alansmurf Spectator 21 posts	Friday 8th August 2008 at 21:51 'training will improve a persons fighting skills ' not if you teach them rubbish that doesn't work! "no weapon formed against me shall prosper" Andy I try not to.... Smurf.. Smurf
spider Regular 235 posts	Saturday 9th August 2008 at 17:34 I have heard of kuzushi, yes. Have you heard of fighting? I can't believe you think that will work! This is the problem Andy, and rather more tactfully Rob, are trying to make. If you don't practise fighting, you won't know how to fight. No matter what style, clubs that do not allow scope for sparring against a fully resistant opponent are not allowing you to learn how to defend yourself.
Robsco 1319 posts	Sunday 10th August 2008 at 01:17 So it all comes down to not only the Style you train but also the club. I think it's fair to say you could train in any style, but unless the instruction is amazing you wouldn't get anything out of it. That's why you should always go and visit a few clubs around your local area before taking any up. Any club will very soon get you sucked in to why their particular club/style is best. I'd be surprised if anyone argues that point. The Admin Guy
Alansmurf Spectator 21 posts	Sunday 10th August 2008 at 07:26 Spider ...thanks for your advice re what will and wont work .. Kuzishi learnt from a good judo player will work ... randori with resistance does work .... Robsco ...yes it does depend on the club and the instuctor ... As stated enjoy your jujitsu .....whether it be stand up or ground work .. regards Smurf Smurf
monkeynuts Spectator 15 posts	Thursday 16th October 2008 at 09:37 Hi all, New to this site and only been training for 1 year. In our club, taijutsukai, our syllabus is mainly stand up self defense but we grapple every session with several partners practicing groung submissions although our instructors never really say that we are using Bjj. I am somtimes confused as to whether I am training in traditional ju jitsu or BJJ. Obvioulsy our grading is based mainly on stand up self defence with some throws, locks, bear hug escapes, head lock escapes, knife defence and so on. Our ground work varies from arm locks, leg locks, chokes and so on. What would you say I am training in???? Thanks
andy Resident 729 posts	Thursday 16th October 2008 at 09:46 tai jutsu kai are traditional ju jitsu "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"
monkeynuts Spectator 15 posts	Thursday 16th October 2008 at 14:20 Ok thanks. Some of the BJJ techniques shown on this site are techniques that I have learned at TJK. Would it be safe to say that they are touching on BJJ for the ground stuff that we are doing? As for weapons and stuff we havnen't done any of that. I really enjoy the ground aspect of my training and feel more comfortable down there. Surely BJJ is best for ground fighting but if you are in a street fight and the attacker has 1 or 2 mates that might stamp your head into the ground if you get the better of their friend then isn't it best to stay standing if you can't get out of there?
outkast Spectator 39 posts	Thursday 16th October 2008 at 16:31 if you want to see the tjk syllabus checkout the early gracie j-j vids could not get over how similar they are the darkside is more fun
monkeynuts Spectator 15 posts	Thursday 16th October 2008 at 16:53 Yes I agree, getting to the clinch and safety zone are the same. We've tested it with head guards and gloves on and it does work
Ashiro Spectator 7 posts	Sunday 23rd November 2008 at 21:49 Considering the fact that JJJ and BJJ have almost identical techniques but with differing emphasis it is obvious by its very nature that its entirely dependent on the teaching methodologies used and not the techniques of the style. Many of the 'new' techniques brought into BJJ have been in a number of original JJJ ryu for hundreds of years. Essentially they've created few new techniques in BJJ but have simply re-discovered them. Don't make the mistake of comparing BJJ with Judo in this regard because Judo itself also lacks a number of techniques considered to hard/dangerous that are in traditional JJJ ryu. So with such similar technique its the emphasis of different situations, methods and such that make the difference. In which case it boils down to the teaching - not the style. Tai Jutsu Kai West Midlands, UK
BB Spectator 5 posts	Monday 24th November 2008 at 17:49 I have also recently started training with TJK in the West Midlands and was wondering the same questions as you have brought up here. I did realise that it was traditional JJ but there does seem to be a lot of ground work also.
tafster Newbie 9 posts	Monday 24th November 2008 at 20:16 I've spoken to Ross Iannoccaro who is the head of the TJK. He acknowledges the weakness in what has become traditional ju-jitsu and some of the stuff I've seen him teach looks a lot more effective that a lot of what is usually taught - quite a lot like Krav Maga. He has also brought Carley Gracie to the UK and has added BJJ techniques. TJK is still traditional ju-jitsu but it attempts to break free of the rigidity of kata - don't know how successful it is.
Ashiro Spectator 7 posts	Tuesday 9th December 2008 at 15:23 I think the TJK lessons I do and the syllabus are very well structured. Ross obviously knows what he's doing and so do the other senseis. I've been in competitions where these Japanese JJ fighters have competed against BJJ. They more often than not win. At the grappling comp in October it was Japanese JJ that won in most of the categories. There were some BJJ and wrestler wins, though not many. Tai Jutsu Kai West Midlands, UK
cobra kai Spectator 2 posts	Monday 9th February 2009 at 14:00 bjj is s type of judo thats focus is on the ground fighting element of fighting and in turn judo is the growing and groundfighting type of ju jitsu. you will learn a good chunk of the bjj stuff in jjj but not in the same detail.
Rickson Gracie Newbie 36 posts	Friday 13th February 2009 at 17:40 Everybody. Now make listen up very good. TJJ also very good, but BJJ is daddy, and I am daddy of BJJ, so that make me the superDADDY. I always thought I was more than just the DADDY, but make thank you to you all for confirming it for me. As for people saying TJJ is no good, they not know what they talking. I have lot respect for TJJ people, even though I kick they ass, but this is not strange thing, I kick everybody ass. Thank you. 1995 Vale Tudo champion BJJ Daddy General all round Badass
wizkid Spectator 2 posts	Tuesday 24th February 2009 at 00:39 OK. I get it. There are advocates of both. It would seem that those that have practised both variants think that BJJ is the more appropriate for possible "real, street encounters" that one might find themselves in. Question is, as a TOTAL newbie, would I be better off starting in traditional then progressing after a time to BJJ? Is there anything that I would miss out on, so to speak, by starting directly with BJJ? Also, it sounds as if BJJ requires a greater pain threshold when sparring than traditional. Would starting off learning BJJ first be a baptism of fire? I have so far had only a single "lesson" in traditional JJ. All opinions welcomed. Cheers.
Robsco 1319 posts	Tuesday 24th February 2009 at 22:24 Personally, as a complete newbie, I'd start with traditional (like I did, and most BJJ players prob did too). For one, you'll have more gradings and see yourself progress quicker. In BJJ you might be lucky to get a new belt after a year, or upto 6 years of waiting, which can obviously be a bit dis-heartening and make you feel like you're not progressing. Although some clubs will award up-to 4 "stripes" on your current belt so you can see that you're getting somewhere. Also, starting with something like traditional Ju-Jitsu, you'll learn a bit of everything, after being exposed to weapons, and/or striking, etc, ya might not be that interested in BJJ afterall since it's really a subset of Trad. JJ. I don't think there's any "pain threshold" to worry about, no-one's gonna start ripping your limbs off with whatever you choose. :o) I'd stick with a few more traditional lessons and see what takes your interest after you've experienced a bit more - maybe go along to a BJJ class if there's one close by too? The Admin Guy
wizkid Spectator 2 posts	Tuesday 3rd March 2009 at 20:29 Thanks for that Robsco. I think I'll follow your advice and stick with traditional for the time being.
stud Spectator 2 posts	Wednesday 4th March 2009 at 15:45 I think that Rob has the most sensable advice. I have built my plan based off of his advice. I tried BJJ before getting into Traditional JJ, and found BJJ to be a more injury prone sport. I took the Modern Army Combatives Program for two weeks, which is basically an 80 hour crash course on how to survive for 5 or 10 minutes of wrestling until backup arrives. During this course we learned the basic moves and chokes, but we were put dirrectly into competition with eachother after a few hours. Needless to say there were quite a few injuries. One guys leg got broken and turned around backwards. My leg almost got broken when someone caught theirself right before landing on it. I am taking traditional JJ classes now in Baltimore, Maryland and am focusing on my technique and learning the moves before applying them to a fully resistant opponent. Personally I believe that BJJ is more fun than Traditional JJ, but believe that there is a learning process you must go through in order to not develope bad habits and/or get injured. I am taking 1-hour classes 5 times a week and hope to get some good training during my first year then I will switch to BJJ. I am a very competitive person which is why I enjoy BJJ, but I always am interested in learning how to defend myself in real-world situations (Baltimore isn't a friendly place after dark. Plus I have some in-laws that would love to take a crack at me.) As for one technique being better than the other... IMHO I think that both have advantages and can be given realism whether you practice the realism in the Dojo or at home. "Why Ike, maybe poker is just not your game. I know... let's have a spelling contest" - Doc Holliday
domn8 Spectator 15 posts	Monday 6th April 2009 at 13:26 I have been training in Traditional JJ for six months now and i love it. The wristlocks, shoulderlocks etc. i find fascinating and while i think applying these on an opponent with knowledge of the grappling arts may be tough, applying them on an aggressive thug with 10 beers in him be a lot easier. Deep down this is more important to me as self-defence is my No. 1 priority. We do some ground grappling as well though and this is great fun and the only surely competitive section of training as full effort can be used to achive submission. If this were done with standing joint locks i think we would sustain injuries every week. I am, as i stated, a beginner and i'm sure my opinions may change as i pick up the decades of experience other posters have here. I love the groundwork and may very well take some bjj classes in the future to concentrate on this (and to show up my TJJ pals) but in the meantime i'm more than happy training TJJ and fell it has a great deal to offer. Isn't it better to send just your opponent to the floor instead of both of you?

Author

Comments

Spectator

21 posts

Friday 8th August 2008 at 21:51

'training will improve a persons fighting skills '

not if you teach them rubbish that doesn't work!

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

Andy I try not to....

Smurf..

Smurf

spider

Regular

235 posts

Saturday 9th August 2008 at 17:34

I have heard of kuzushi, yes. Have you heard of fighting? I can't believe you think that will work!

This is the problem Andy, and rather more tactfully Rob, are trying to make.
If you don't practise fighting, you won't know how to fight.

No matter what style, clubs that do not allow scope for sparring against a fully resistant opponent are not allowing you to learn how to defend yourself.

Robsco

1319 posts

Sunday 10th August 2008 at 01:17

So it all comes down to not only the Style you train but also the club.

I think it's fair to say you could train in any style, but unless the instruction is amazing you wouldn't get anything out of it.

That's why you should always go and visit a few clubs around your local area before taking any up.

Any club will very soon get you sucked in to why their particular club/style is best.

I'd be surprised if anyone argues that point.

The Admin Guy

Alansmurf

Spectator

21 posts

Sunday 10th August 2008 at 07:26

Spider ...thanks for your advice re what will and wont work ..

Kuzishi learnt from a good judo player will work ...

randori with resistance does work ....

Robsco ...yes it does depend on the club and the instuctor ...

As stated enjoy your jujitsu .....whether it be stand up or ground work ..

regards

Smurf

Smurf

monkeynuts

Spectator

15 posts

Thursday 16th October 2008 at 09:37

Hi all,

New to this site and only been training for 1 year.

In our club, taijutsukai, our syllabus is mainly stand up self defense but we grapple every session with several partners practicing groung submissions although our instructors never really say that we are using Bjj.

I am somtimes confused as to whether I am training in traditional ju jitsu or BJJ. Obvioulsy our grading is based mainly on stand up self defence with some throws, locks, bear hug escapes, head lock escapes, knife defence and so on. Our ground work varies from arm locks, leg locks, chokes and so on.

What would you say I am training in????

Thanks

andy

Resident

729 posts

Thursday 16th October 2008 at 09:46

tai jutsu kai are traditional ju jitsu

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

monkeynuts

Spectator

15 posts

Thursday 16th October 2008 at 14:20

Ok thanks. Some of the BJJ techniques shown on this site are techniques that I have learned at TJK. Would it be safe to say that they are touching on BJJ for the ground stuff that we are doing? As for weapons and stuff we havnen't done any of that.

I really enjoy the ground aspect of my training and feel more comfortable down there. Surely BJJ is best for ground fighting but if you are in a street fight and the attacker has 1 or 2 mates that might stamp your head into the ground if you get the better of their friend then isn't it best to stay standing if you can't get out of there?

outkast

Spectator

39 posts

Thursday 16th October 2008 at 16:31

if you want to see the tjk syllabus checkout the early gracie j-j vids could not get over how similar they are

the darkside is more fun

monkeynuts

Spectator

15 posts

Thursday 16th October 2008 at 16:53

Yes I agree, getting to the clinch and safety zone are the same. We've tested it with head guards and gloves on and it does work

Ashiro

Spectator

7 posts

Sunday 23rd November 2008 at 21:49

Considering the fact that JJJ and BJJ have almost identical techniques but with differing emphasis it is obvious by its very nature that its entirely dependent on the teaching methodologies used and not the techniques of the style.

Many of the 'new' techniques brought into BJJ have been in a number of original JJJ ryu for hundreds of years. Essentially they've created few new techniques in BJJ but have simply re-discovered them.

Don't make the mistake of comparing BJJ with Judo in this regard because Judo itself also lacks a number of techniques considered to hard/dangerous that are in traditional JJJ ryu.

So with such similar technique its the emphasis of different situations, methods and such that make the difference.

In which case it boils down to the teaching - not the style.

Tai Jutsu Kai
West Midlands, UK

Spectator

5 posts

Monday 24th November 2008 at 17:49

I have also recently started training with TJK in the West Midlands and was wondering the same questions as you have brought up here.

I did realise that it was traditional JJ but there does seem to be a lot of ground work also.

tafster

Newbie

9 posts

Monday 24th November 2008 at 20:16

I've spoken to Ross Iannoccaro who is the head of the TJK. He acknowledges the weakness in what has become traditional ju-jitsu and some of the stuff I've seen him teach looks a lot more effective that a lot of what is usually taught - quite a lot like Krav Maga.

He has also brought Carley Gracie to the UK and has added BJJ techniques. TJK is still traditional ju-jitsu but it attempts to break free of the rigidity of kata - don't know how successful it is.

Ashiro

Spectator

7 posts

Tuesday 9th December 2008 at 15:23

I think the TJK lessons I do and the syllabus are very well structured. Ross obviously knows what he's doing and so do the other senseis.

I've been in competitions where these Japanese JJ fighters have competed against BJJ. They more often than not win.

At the grappling comp in October it was Japanese JJ that won in most of the categories. There were some BJJ and wrestler wins, though not many.

Tai Jutsu Kai
West Midlands, UK

cobra kai

Spectator

2 posts

Monday 9th February 2009 at 14:00

bjj is s type of judo thats focus is on the ground fighting element of fighting and in turn judo is the growing and groundfighting type of ju jitsu.

you will learn a good chunk of the bjj stuff in jjj but not in the same detail.

Rickson Gracie

Newbie

36 posts

Friday 13th February 2009 at 17:40

Everybody. Now make listen up very good. TJJ also very good, but BJJ is daddy, and I am daddy of BJJ, so that make me the superDADDY.

I always thought I was more than just the DADDY, but make thank you to you all for confirming it for me.

As for people saying TJJ is no good, they not know what they talking. I have lot respect for TJJ people, even though I kick they ass, but this is not strange thing, I kick everybody ass.

Thank you.

*1995 Vale Tudo champion*
*BJJ Daddy*
*General all round Badass*

wizkid

Spectator

2 posts

Tuesday 24th February 2009 at 00:39

OK. I get it. There are advocates of both. It would seem that those that have practised both variants think that BJJ is the more appropriate for possible "real, street encounters" that one might find themselves in. Question is, as a TOTAL newbie, would I be better off starting in traditional then progressing after a time to BJJ? Is there anything that I would miss out on, so to speak, by starting directly with BJJ? Also, it sounds as if BJJ requires a greater pain threshold when sparring than traditional. Would starting off learning BJJ first be a baptism of fire? I have so far had only a single "lesson" in traditional JJ. All opinions welcomed. Cheers.

Robsco

1319 posts

Tuesday 24th February 2009 at 22:24

Personally, as a complete newbie, I'd start with traditional (like I did, and most BJJ players prob did too).

For one, you'll have more gradings and see yourself progress quicker.

In BJJ you might be lucky to get a new belt after a year, or upto 6 years of waiting, which can obviously be a bit dis-heartening and make you feel like you're not progressing. Although some clubs will award up-to 4 "stripes" on your current belt so you can see that you're getting somewhere.

Also, starting with something like traditional Ju-Jitsu, you'll learn a bit of everything, after being exposed to weapons, and/or striking, etc, ya might not be that interested in BJJ afterall since it's really a subset of Trad. JJ.

I don't think there's any "pain threshold" to worry about, no-one's gonna start ripping your limbs off with whatever you choose. :o)

I'd stick with a few more traditional lessons and see what takes your interest after you've experienced a bit more - maybe go along to a BJJ class if there's one close by too?

The Admin Guy

wizkid

Spectator

2 posts

Tuesday 3rd March 2009 at 20:29

Thanks for that Robsco. I think I'll follow your advice and stick with traditional for the time being.

stud

Spectator

2 posts

Wednesday 4th March 2009 at 15:45

I think that Rob has the most sensable advice. I have built my plan based off of his advice.

I tried BJJ before getting into Traditional JJ, and found BJJ to be a more injury prone sport. I took the Modern Army Combatives Program for two weeks, which is basically an 80 hour crash course on how to survive for 5 or 10 minutes of wrestling until backup arrives. During this course we learned the basic moves and chokes, but we were put dirrectly into competition with eachother after a few hours. Needless to say there were quite a few injuries. One guys leg got broken and turned around backwards. My leg almost got broken when someone caught theirself right before landing on it.

I am taking traditional JJ classes now in Baltimore, Maryland and am focusing on my technique and learning the moves before applying them to a fully resistant opponent.

Personally I believe that BJJ is more fun than Traditional JJ, but believe that there is a learning process you must go through in order to not develope bad habits and/or get injured.

I am taking 1-hour classes 5 times a week and hope to get some good training during my first year then I will switch to BJJ. I am a very competitive person which is why I enjoy BJJ, but I always am interested in learning how to defend myself in real-world situations (Baltimore isn't a friendly place after dark. Plus I have some in-laws that would love to take a crack at me.)

As for one technique being better than the other... IMHO I think that both have advantages and can be given realism whether you practice the realism in the Dojo or at home.

"Why Ike, maybe poker is just not your game. I know... let's have a spelling contest" - Doc Holliday

domn8

Spectator

15 posts

Monday 6th April 2009 at 13:26

I have been training in Traditional JJ for six months now and i love it. The wristlocks, shoulderlocks etc. i find fascinating and while i think applying these on an opponent with knowledge of the grappling arts may be tough, applying them on an aggressive thug with 10 beers in him be a lot easier. Deep down this is more important to me as self-defence is my No. 1 priority.
We do some ground grappling as well though and this is great fun and the only surely competitive section of training as full effort can be used to achive submission. If this were done with standing joint locks i think we would sustain injuries every week.
I am, as i stated, a beginner and i'm sure my opinions may change as i pick up the decades of experience other posters have here.
I love the groundwork and may very well take some bjj classes in the future to concentrate on this (and to show up my TJJ pals) but in the meantime i'm more than happy training TJJ and fell it has a great deal to offer.
Isn't it better to send just your opponent to the floor instead of both of you?